Jimmy Joy forum

New formula [MEGA THREAD]

Hello,

We created Plenny Shake based on the largest amount of scientific research possible as to not fall in the trap of chasing hype cycles. We based the formula on recommendation of the WHO and EFSA which draw conclusions of meta analysis of a large body of research papers. Now that the formula is based in solid research and is imo very tasty iam hesitant to change it.

I would also love to make a version that is more driven by the latest research and input from the community. I wanna be at the forefront of food tech whereby we as a community decide what research is promising enough to incorporate in our dietary routine.

I will order very large bags capable of holding 25 meals of 400 kcal Plenny Shake with just the logo on the front so that we can print the labels in our factory ourselves in order to make faster iterations. This thread is to brainstorm together what we want.

PS: I will remove the personal nutrition as an option to free up resources for this project and will make a good pre-order deal to further fund it. Contributors to the formula will be able to buy it for the pre-order price into the future.

EDIT1: New big bag Plenny Shake formula.

Thanks for the feedback on the new formula. I currently have the following:
Lower carbs. Higher protein. Higher fat. No maltodextrin. Same omega profile. Same amino acid profile.

Suggestion: macrosplit carbs 35%/ fat 35%/ protein 30%

Feel free to give input on fiber source. Am currently thinking psyllium husk, inulin and/or apple fiber on top of the fibers in oats (which have a nice 50/50 split, soluble and not)

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To me, Jimmy Joy has three advantages: it’s healthy, affordable and it saves a lot of time. Taking this into consideration, this is my experience with the new formula (but please note that I’ve only tried the neutral flavor).

What I liked.

-The texture. It’s so much smoother that it’s easier to drink. Just shake a few times and it blends perfectly, also the powder doesn’t drop to the bottom of the bottle like with the old formula, which made me shake the bottle again every time I took a sip. Also, this new texture made the shakes more appetizing to me, meaning many times, when lunch time comes, I actually want to have a Plenny Shake.

-The bag. It really makes the powder easier to scoop out. Also, I can comfortably keep my scoop inside the bag. Actually, I’d never used the scoop before with the old bags, I used regular spoons for measure, and I ended up cutting off the top of the bag when I was halfway through it.

-The flavour? I did like the new flavour better than the old one, but’ I’m using a question mark since I’ve only tried one flavour of the new formula so far.

What I didn’t like.

-The texture. Yes, the new texture has some disadvantages for me too. Since it’s thinner, I need a bigger amount to feel full (at least half a scoop more than before). Oh, and I can’t keep it in the fridge anymore, because it turns into some kind of goo that doesn’t get thinner when I add more water, so now taking Plenny Shake to work on a daily basis is a no-go because I like my water cold.

-The amount of powder in each bag, which is related to the previous point. Since I now need to take a bigger amount of powder, and the amount that each bag contains is smaller, I have to buy more bags per month, which kinda defeats the purpose of Jimmy Joy being affordable. Although I believe it’s still the cheapest in the market.

-The protein. Of course. Ok, maybe we don’t need as much protein as the old formula contained, but I believe I need more than the actual formula contains. It’s true that I don’t exercise excessively, but protein also serves the purpose of helping us feel more satiated, and we musn’t forget that we are drinking food, so it’s good to have a little help in that respect. Sure, we do have the Active version, but it’s more expensive and it contains maybe too much protein, which again defeats the purpose of Jimmy Joy being affordable. Also, I hate banana, I can’t stand the taste of aything banana flavoured.

My personal suggestions.

-Always keep the sugar as low as possible. I believe the OMS reccomends 15-35gr per day (not completely sure, though), but they are adamant that it’s better to keep it on the low, so maybe not more that 20grs per bag?

-A bit more protein, maybe less than there was in the old formula, but definitely more that there is in the new one.

-More flavours. I know this one is hard, and it really depends on everyone’s taste, but now that you’re planning to sell bigger bags, maybe you cna sell big bags of Neutral and then small flavour packs with more variants, so then everyone can mix neutral with whatever flavor they like (or none).

-Please don’t change the Twennybars. I don’t think I can live without the vanilla ones, which I buy because they’re the ones with the lowest amount of sugar in the market. Also, I noticed the last batch’s flavour was slightly different because it lacked the usual artificially sweet aftertaste, and I really really loved that.

-A container for one or two portions of powder. I take Plenny Shake to work when I have a longer sift but it’s kind of a mess: I don’t have a proper container to keep the powder at bay, I don’t like taking the powder inside the bottle and then adding water at work because there’s always a big chunk of powder that gets stuck to the bottom and doesn’t blend, and I can’t make the mix at home and then keep it in the frigde until lunch because it gets gooey. So I usually take the powder inside a plastic baggie but then I spill it everywhere and one day the baggy will break and I will make a real mess. So I think I’d be usefull if you sold 200grs containers for the powder.

And I think that’s about it, thanks for reading.

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Hey Vatican,

Thanks a lot for your thoughts. The container is a good idea if we go for big bags. The regular bags are smaller and resealable, do they work for you to bring along?

Not really, I mean, I could take them, but they’re not comfortable for me. I only take Plenny Shake two or three times a month for work, sonce I work part time. So I don’t really need to have a full meal at work except for the few days a months that I actually work a full time shift. Most days I just need a mid afternoon snack so I take a Twennybar and eat part of it.

I haven’t really tested the strenght of the resealable zip in the bags, but they’re a bit too bulky to carry and to store at work (I don’t have a Lot of space and also It would take me like two months to finish a whole bag at work). I just though of the container to be able to carry one or two portions.

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So, the real problem is that these types of products are having a problem finding a market. People are extremely skeptical and averse to the idea, and for good reasons (I use the product, but I also know there’s a risk).

But because of this situation we had a side effect where a large portion of customers are coming directly from a group of people that is already familiar with the idea of “protein shakes”. Because the leap from protein shakes to “complete meals” is a short one.

This had the direct consequence of having an overall large portion of your customers demanding on average a lot more protein than usual (because, again, they were protein shake users, and want your product to replace a protein shake). Of course, when you HALVE the protein amount from one iteration to the next you also have to expect some (substantial) backlash.

Yet we also know why it happened. You removed all source of protein outside of oats and soy flour. Removing a variety of ingredients isn’t exactly ideal (and I think it isn’t ideal relying on soy flour either), but we KNOW, again, why this was done. It’s because you said those protein sources weren’t “smooth” and we also know that people have to rely on taste and feeling, with a food product, so the first aspect to improve, that people asked, was about making it smoother. And the new recipe is an attempt to square the circle when you factor all these aspects along with the costs and everything else.

The first real issue we have here is about “ideology”. Ideal nutrition going against ideal taste and feel. The need to make the product smoother in the mouth led to worse quality of nutrition overall. This specific aspect isn’t fundamental, but it will come up again even in the hypothesis we find a “better recipe”. What if the better recipe isn’t as smooth?

Let’s put that aside, and discuss nutrition instead (but knowing that there are always repercussions).

The problem with the new recipe isn’t about protein, despite you personally have a problem with the protein as a company because of higher demands due to what I explained above.

With a neutral approach to the recipe the bigger issues aren’t with protein, but with the low quality and abundance of those carbs. This is the real problem and the reason why the new recipe is worse compared to the old one.

The old recipe had a few general issues. Too much protein, too low fats, high carbs, and too much reliance of low quality carbs due to the amount of maltodextrin. And a few things that could be tweaked about the ratio of the micros.

The new recipe kneejerked with the protein (for smoothness and cost), going from too high to just “fine”. Increased a little bit the fats, but not in a way that is incisive. And relied as much as before, and then MORE, on low quality carbs.

I’m also wary of trusting that maltodextrin wasn’t increased. Even then, maltodextrin was already a problem that needed to be addressed in the old recipe.

The labels say that carbs went from 47g/100g of the old recipe, to 54g/100g, it’s a small increase. But it’s about increasing a problem that needed to be addressed.

We have 260g carbs for 2000 calories. That means roughly, if we trust the vague claims we got, that each bag contains 130-140g of maltodextrin. That means that roughly 30% of a whole bag is just maltodextrin. And if we consider that maltodextrin can behave a whole lot like sugar then it’s obvious that this cannot really be good nutrition.

So, before we look at protein I think the main issue is knowing how to improve those problems with carbs. We can see that other companies, including Soylent, mitigate the maltodextrin by replacing half of it with isomaltulose. I’m doubtful about this “fix”. There’s the side effect of sugars showing on the label, higher costs of the ingredient, and we don’t really know if isomaltulose is really better or worse, even if it “should” be better (it might also lead to fructose malabsorption).

Imho, neither maltodextrin nor isomaltulose seem good solutions. We ideally need complex, slow carbs that aren’t refined. Whether “smooth” or not.

In general, the more carbs are closer to 200g, the better. So, even without adding isomaltulose, a good idea would be to remove some of that maltodextrin, with the goal of removing it entirely (or close to). This means we have two other macros to work with, if the goal is to dial back carbs.

Protein is much easier to deal with, and the reason why the current “fad” is about boosting the protein amount to crazy levels. Imho, 90/100g is the limit a product shouldn’t break, in order to stay within the guidelines. That would be a small increase that would allow to remove some of those carbs.

But obviously it’s not enough, and so you have to go to fats. Fats aren’t as simple to deal with, but here is where the attention should go.

tl;dr
the main issue of the new recipe isn’t protein, but the high amount and low quality of carbs. Carbs need to be reduced overall, maltodextrin should be abandoned. To achieve this you likely should maximize protein, but not beyond 100g. And the rest has to be built from good fats and better carbs.

Suggestions to do that? Remove maltodextrin as much as possible by, increasing oats some more, entirely replacing soy flour with soy protein isolate, up to 95g. Then boost some more fats through flaxseed oil, and/or canola oil or algal oil.

Those are the steps for better nutrition, it’s up to you to square the circle by making it match with costs and “smoothness”.

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I agree with @abalieno, I’d rather sacrifice the smoothness if it meant a healthier shake. I can always use the blender. I’d also prefer more fats and less carbs.

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Thanks! I like all the feedback, keep it coming. Just to be clear; Plenny Shake is not less smooth if we add protein. The Plenny Shake Active is also smooth. Health is our number one concern. We could look into changing maltodextrin or reduce it. The concern with malto is that it spikes GI if eaten solely right? It does not do that in Plenny Shake because there are other ingredients, the main contributor to carbs being oats. The GI of Plenny Shake is low.

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What is the ideal macro spread?
Comment in % of carbs/fat/protein (for example 33/33/33)

If you can, mention why you think it is ideal.

Talking about protein:

I think it would be interesting if there were slightly more somewhere between 75-100 (closer to this end).

I also agree that I would like to see a swap from soy to pea+rice or Whey. There are multiple research showing the benefits of whey over soy, even though it is probably true that a lot more research has been done with whey (and looking especifically to the benefits of whey). I know that there was an “environmental bet” to go all vegan, but I fully believe that if you can get NED sources, they could be more environmentally friendly than outsourced soy.

Talking about carbs:

I need to agree with @abalieno that I would rather see a source of complex carbohydrates like oats (sorry texture) before maltodextrin. The maltodextrin+isomaltulose formula seems to be very common though, thus it could be something that could work out.

I would not particularly say they need to be lowered, but “increased in quality”.

Fats:

As long as MUFA>PUFA>SFA, omega3/6 ratio close to 1/3 I would be ok. Addition of MCT could be interesting too.

Energy:

I found out that I end up spliting somewhere around 54C/25P/21F usually. 25% is for me a fairly high protein (I tend to end around 130g in 2,200kcal) diet that I find useful for sport purposes and overall health. Carbs seem to have a bad name, but I do not see the problem while the source is good. Perhaps, some people would find something more like 50/25/25 more appropriate.

New big bag Plenny Shake formula.

Thanks for the feedback on the new formula. I currently have the following:
Lower carbs. Higher protein. Higher fat. No maltodextrin. Same omega profile. Same amino acid profile. It Unflavoured and unsweetened.

Suggestion: macrosplit carbs 35%/ fat 35%/ protein 30%

Feel free to give input on fiber source. Am currently thinking psyllium husk, inulin and/or apple fiber on top of the fibers in oats (which have a nice 50/50 split, soluble and not)

This is the design btw

5 Likes

Small criticism of the design: it says “energy” and “independence” maybe, (and maybe GodzillaShake?) but it doesn’t say “community” to me. You clearly want this to be a community effort! Could we have more bags, holding hands and pulling each other along?

haha thanks. It was meant as godzilla indeed. As in a big bag, big like Godzilla.

1 Like

Hello there,

The ingredients approach seems better:

  • Removal of maltodextrin ( going into Isomaltulose/Palatinose or better, the more natural oats)?

  • Also divided in opinion regarding psyllium husk vs inulin was reading:

Seems psyllium husk being more natural than inulin ( but also more used for constipation - so some doubts on continuous usage and effect on gut flora).

Unflavored and unsweetened is, IMHO, a perfect choice and allows many buyers a strong “base version”, even to flavour or blend with what they like, of even probably mixing with existing flavors of Jimmy Joy.

I like the idea of Jimmy Joy U & U with some berries on a blender :slight_smile:

If that´s the path you´re heading I think It will be a better one.

The only thing that stills bother me is the fluoride, that is still not consensual:

http://fluoridealert.org/studytracker/

http://fluoridealert.org/studies/essential-nutrient/

http://fluoridealert.org/content/europe-statements/

Hope with all the information together JJ could still come with something positively differentiated.

All the best.

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Thank you I will look into it. We where thinking sole oats indeed. Oats and soy flour.

Honestly, I would love to see the removal of soy. Plenty of soy containing shakes out there and I am not a big fan. Not only for nutritional and taste reasons, but because it is not an European plant. It would be good to have something slightly different to the rest of the line up, too.

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soy has good fats and good protein though. Ukraine is the largest producer of soybeans in Europe, and the 8th largest in the world.

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I would like to suggest use a mix of protein sources, i.e., hemp, pea and/or rice, not only soy and oats.
And formula should be 100% vegan, no added value to use whey, it is more environmentally friendly and cruelty free. Thanks.

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Hi
I tried Plenny shakes for the first time yesterday…these are my thoughts.

After reading your post I BEG you not to add psyllium husk, I made my own spirulina shakes last year adding that
and it made me gag, if left for just a short while it becomes a jelly slimy consistency.

I noted that Plenny shakes when put in the fridge of freezer also come out slimy.
I have kind of an addiction, I LOVE slush puppy type drinks so I freeze a lot of juices and shakes, this is what I intended to do with my Plenny shakes. Normally my fave to freeze is Horchata but it as so much sugar in so I assumed Plenny shakes would be better as I am an insulin resistant diabetic.
BUT I froze two portions and when I went to eat them it was like slime, not nice at all. So I feel they are best drank made with cold water straight away.

I also have no working taste buds, all taste is sugar and salt but my daughter and mum said the chocolate shake was not chocolatey, there was a mere hint of it, so why not add more cocoa to it?

My daughter said the banana was tasty.
The coffee not strong enough.
SO I think the flavours need tweeking.
After she felt full but had diarrhoea, this l think was just because she is not used to this sort of product, she also reacted
like that when she first tried Alpro light soya milk, now she drinks it with no problem.

I purchased the shakes for a few reasons, firstly I am against spending time cooking a meal which I cannot taste unless strong in sugar or salt. even curries I only get the high notes of.
I am not allowed sugar or salt in high amounts due to my VERY high sugar levels (over 400 most days).
I have high cholesterol even though I do not eat fatty foods…supposedly all genetic the same as my high sugar levels.
When I went to the hospital they said I must weigh out my food, list it, shit like that then return in January, by then I could be dead!
So these shakes mean I do not have to do all that, I know daily what I am having.
I am a vegan so no worrying about fulfilling my dietary needs.
It also means not so much blood testing, not so much insulin so my tummy will not be sore.
I am on 60 slow release units of insulin and 30 plus of rapid acting insulin daily, makes no difference.
I basically HATE food…so these shakes work for me.
BUT only because I cannot really taste much, unlike other people…so going by people who have tasted them I would say
they think I am crazy for drinking them as they get no pleasure from them, no one said they were yummy or nice.

Health wise I would like to see less sugar, or a natural substitute as fake sugar is bad for diabetics, bad for everyone and they have a nasty after taste. l would like more carbs added but only slow release sugar ones.
I would like hemp or pea protein, or even more oats…no more soy.
No more fat, protein but only if it does not add more calories.
LESS of a slime texture, that really is not nice and I guess it is from the bulking agent.
I´d prefer a porridge consistency over a slime one any day.
In fact could you make a breakfast cereal like porridge so we can add soya milk to it,
it would be nice to have some solid texture.
More flavours would be nicer, even if I cannot detect it I can imagine them (haha).

All in all, I have a full tummy, I do not feel hungry and I can tell the nutritionist at the hospital to get her head out of her butt now. She told me I do not get enough protein because I am a vegan…I evidently NEED to eat meat.
I got angry but kept composed and said “I probably eat better than she does and I am educated in protein sources”.
Then I had my blood pressure taken and it was high…she said that was bad, BUT mine is never high ever, so it was due to her ignorance. I plan to print out loads of info on vegan diets for her.

I can also stuff a bag of Plenny shake in her face :o)

Okay that is my review, later I will review again when l have been on it longer.

Thank you for your hard work, it is much appreciated!

Melloney

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thanks. It it vegan indeed.

Hi there,

Regarding soybeans, also considering Ukraine info, I found same data:

https://www.apk-inform.com/en/exclusive/opinion/1047390#.W8EqXR1VKHs

https://www.kleffmann.com/en/information-center/information-center/soy-in-ukraine ( GMO Soybean paragraph)

http://www.donausoja.org/en/certification/standards/europe-soya-standard/ (GM free standard)

New link:


( only 30% soy in Ukraine is non -GM)

If opting for soy hope there´s information and assurance of the sourcing.

Regards.

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